land rather than out of the suburbs. It’s important that we have respect for the police, that they be fair and even- handed, and that they particularly be concerned with crimes in which there are victims rather than crimes in which there are no victims. In order for that to happen, those policemen have to be sensitive. Right now, Portland police perceive Albina as a terrible area to work. “I’ve talked with those guys — they’re scared. They say, “Those people over there” — that’s their euphemism for black people — “Those people over there carry guns. You don’t know what it’s like. We find guns much more of the time.” Then you look at the statistics and you discover they find guns in Lents, they find guns in Buckman — the fact of the matter is, you’ve got a lot of desperate people, and they’ve got guns — it has nothing to do with their color; it has to do with their poverty and their desperation, and the macho image that we present for people in our society. But the police see it in very racial terms. The police department has never really spent enough hours in minority training for its officers. So, inevitably, the police see themselves as going into a dangerous, enemy-infested area, the neighborhood sees the police as a conquering army, and you get no cooperation, no hope, no help and no real respect. CSQ: The possum incident presented an opportunity for something to be worked out between the community and the police. It was a crisis situation, but the City Council could have intervened and out of that could have come better communication and better understanding. What actually happened was just the opposite — largely due to Frank Ivancie. How would you like to have seen that situation handled? Uris: First of all, I think the officers’ rights were not adequately protected. Due process, the protection of the law, has to be accorded to everybody: policemen, community members, whatever. And that kind of jeopardized the whole matter. Second of all, I think that a lot of Portlanders really are, they don’t mean to be perhaps, but they are racist — they don’t understand the feeling of black people. If you’re not born in the Southern tradition that says a possum is a warning from the Klan, then you don’t understand its significance. It’s just sort of a nasty joke to you. But it’s no joke to those black people, not at all. Also, there has to be a real understanding of the frustrations the police face. They see the Burger Barn, which is a 24-hour restaurant, as a place where bad guys hang out. Well now, a 24-hour restaurant serving a community which is relatively poor is going to have some people in it that are not going to be the most reputable people on earth. What do you expect? But the policemen, with so little training, have no appreciation of that, no empathy for what’s going on. The City Council should have, first of all, immediately begun to undertake an investigation of the problem, less in terms of what legal violations had taken place, but rather, an attempt to ameliorate the anger of the community. It would have been really nice if the Chief of Police could have said, “We, as policemen, are ashamed of what has happened. We want to make sure that this doesn’t happen again. We are going to make sure of that in all sorts of ways.” And then, outline some things. Those two officers should have been severely reprimanded and should have been fined a significant sum of money. They should have been made to do a little extra community work, instead of regular policing, in that community — an experience of a humbling sort, if you will. And then I think it should have been let go; I think the officers might have learned a lesson; it could have been dropped. But that would have taken consistent leadership on the part of the council. It would have taken an end to the kind of bickering that goes on in the council. Everybody’s always looking for a little political advantage on that council. And consequently they aren’t looking, in the long run, to the public good. If I had been on the council at the time, I would have insisted on a much more thorough investigation of the police department as a whole in terms of its racism. I have heard citizen complaints that are incredible, many of which, when I checked them out, appear to be true. But a climate of hysteria develops when the City’s elected officials don’t take leadership in making people trust the police. If I were a policeman today, after that incident, I’d be more afraid to work in Albina, because I’d know that people would be even more angry at me, though no black person in the city, I’m sure, was surprised at what happened. CSQ: How are you going to go against Mildred Schwab? Uris: Anyone who has had any experience dealing with the city council if I were a policeman today, after the possum Incident, I'd be more afraid to work in Albina, because rd know that people would be even more angry at me, though no black person in the city, rm sure, was surprised at what happened. has seen the games that get played there, and Mildred is one of the major players. Her pattern in voting is very simple. She asks hard questions, sometimes actually humiliating and badgering people, which looks good to some people, but she usually knows the answers, in advance, to the questions she’s asking. And she comes on like a very stern grandmotherly figure. Then she lifts her finger carefully, first dampens it, and sees which way the council is really going to go, and then votes with the majority. And that’s a characteristic of a good politician, in American politics — not a principled position, but a good political position. There are enough people around who have been humiliated — there’s a groundswell of interest in changing that position. Furthermore, it’s what — ten years? That’s a hell of a long time to be in a position like that. I think that she’s out of touch. CSQ: I think that if people know you in Portland, they know you from Portland State and your radical student we are not going to allow the abortion issue to be won by a bunch of menopausal men, who have as much right to speak on women’s problems as a giraffe to speak on the rights of penguins. politics days. Are you going to have to work to achieve another image? Uris: I don’t want to achieve another image. I would say I’m a progressive. As I say, the carrot without the stick — that’s my politics. I don’t want to do away with free enterprise, destroy individual initiative, end property rights, I don’t want to destroy the family, break up the home, I don’t want to hurt the business community. I’m sure that a lot of my constituency is people who were student youth, very enraged over Vietnam, and civil rights issues and so forth, in the late sixties and early seventies. Well, they’ve grown up along with me — we’ve all matured a lot. And I think they’re probably a majority of the voters here. I’m sort of proud of what we did. I think we saved this country a lot of grief by hastening public awareness of the horrors of Vietnam — I wish we had done more. And I think we’ve made the lives of minority people a hell of a lot better by pushing for civil rights. I have no regrets on any of those scores. Most people are aware that those things were good things — that issues like childcare, decent available health care, aren’t fly-by- night issues and people are going to be responsive to them right now, particularly when you have a government in Washington, D.C., that somehow has fantasized, because Jimmy Carter was voted against, that they have a mandate to bring in some kind of corporate fascism in this country. I don’t think most Americans are swallowing that right now. I don’t think they’re going to allow a war in El Salvador or to allow this kind of starvation economy to continue much longer, and their Social Security, which they’ve earned through their work, to be eroded. I don’t think they’re going to allow their health care programs to disappear, or allow women to be forced into a barefoot-and-pregnant posture. We as a people are not going to allow the abortion issue to be won by a bunch of menopausal men, who have about as much right to speak on the issue of women’s problems as would a giraffe to speak on the issue of the rights of penguins. CSQ: Mildred Schwab is a woman, and I think that makes her harder to beat. Uris: It certainly does. Today, thinking people are conscious of the longterm discrimination that women have had to endure. And that makes almost any woman — or any man, for that matter, who’s conscious of feminism — very sensitive to the question of a female or a male candidate. But, if she doesn’t represent the interests of women, the mere fact that she is female is irrelevant. You know, my gender is what I was born with. I’m a feminist. I don’t think that Mildred Schwab will get up in front of an audience and say, as I can say with absolute truthfulness, that I will introduce into the City Council a memorial resolution supporting the ERA, and a memorial resolution supporting the right of women to have or not have children as they wish, that I will work very hard to have good childcare programs in Portland, over some other programs, that I think that equality and affirmative action for all minorities and women are absolutely imperative if we’re going to have social justice. See, I can get up and say those things, and I don’t think she can do that, because I think she’s afraid of losing constituency. But I need the constituency of people who are aware of some of the problems in our society. There’s this old saying that you never will lose money underestimating the intelligence of the American public. I think it’s bullshit. I think the fact of the matter is that if you give people intelligent choices, they respond intelligently. CSQ: Let’s talk about your campaign. You don't have a lot of bucks. Uris: No, I have no money. Well, actually by the time this goes to press, I may have a bunch of money. I have raised $600 in a week, which is not a lot, but it’s pretty amazing. And we’re calling people asking for money. We’re asking for small contributions, because I don’t expect the big donors to be giving money. CSQ: What else? You talked about a door-to-door campaign. Uris: I’m going to go door-to-door in the neighborhoods where I think I will have my strongest support. We are giving some coffees. We are talking to crowds of people. I’m going to all the political events I can. I see this as an activity of spontaneity, grace and thoughtfulness. I actually think that I can win, which may be a psychosis from which I will recover only on May 18, but I think it’s possible. It really depends on whether the kind of people that care, will care enough to get out there and work for me and vote for me. I don’t have thousands of dollars to spend on posters and lawn signs and billboards and television and radio time. I prefer my opponent to waste her money on stuff like that. I figure that if I’m going to win it at all, I’m going to win it because people will get to know who I am, they’ll get to know what I’m interested in doing, and they’ll find in that a potential for unity, which will improve the economic, the social, the political, the artistic and the job climates in Portland. And, whether I win or lose, we will have made people like Mildred Schwab, who have a lot of power, very conscious of the fact that their power doesn’t rest as easily as they think on their heads, very aware that they are the servants, not the masters, of the people. And that, in and of itself, will be a hell of a political accomplishment. Particularly in this time in history. 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