Yes and also the carvers, good carvers have almost the respect of great headhunters. Almost... not quite. How do they select their chiefs? Men who are powerful headhunters become chiefs, simply by the fact that they have taken several heads they have a certain prestige and eventually lead groups in the village. They often have several wives. But there’s no witchdoctor as such? No. There is magic that’s performed but it’s not by one person in the village. Anyone can perform magic, either a man or a woman. There are certain women who seem to perform it more than others, they have some kind of power. They wouldn’t be called witches. I did try to get some information on that, but I only got a little. When someone is sick, they will make cuts in the body wherever the pain is. If you have a headache, they will make cuts on the forehead or tie a piece of rattan string tightly around the head. They will make cuts on the chest or the leg, wherever the pain is. To kill people you have to have the right kind of leaves. How do they feel about their children ? Are they loving and spend a lot of time with them? Very. They are wonderful with their children. Western people would normally say that they spoil the children. Both the father and mother? Both. The father usually takes care of the very young children. Takes them with him .. . into the men’s house or wherever. And the children in turn respect their parents? Oh yeah. So they don't discipline their children ? No. They never beat them or anything like that. Again, I have to take back the word never. In Asmat, one learns never to say the word never. They must spend a lot of time daily searching for food? Nope. They have a lot of free time? We would consider it a lot of free time, yes. The women do all the work. The women have to get the firewood and do most of the work on the sago. You see, one sago tree will give them about three hundred pounds of sago and that’s enough — let’s say five or six hours work — that’s enough to feed a family of six or seven for three or four weeks. That's their main diet, 90 percent of the food is sago, they don’t need anything else. They don’t understand about vitamins and that kind of thing. So if they are really filled up on sago, although they like meat and they like fish, they don’t really need it. The women also go out every morning and every evening for the nets for the fish. The men primarily hunted for wild animals or birds or dammed the rivers to get fish. Or went on raids. They had a lot of free time to sit down and work on their bows and arrows and carvings, or canoes. Each made his own canoe and that takes months. Were they given to games during this free time? Games? You mean adult men? You know, is there sort of teasing and gossiping? Oh yes, what is life without gossip? Gossip is the mainstay of these people. Really? Oh heavens. All night long in the men’s house sometimes. What are they gossiping about primarily? Oh gossiping about sex, about what’s going on in the next village. Gossiping or talking, whichever word you want to use, about the sago fields or where the fish are running in what rivers or what is happening in the sea. All that kind of talk. Or relationships between people, who beat up his wife last or whose wife beat him up with a machete and stabbed him with a human bone dagger. Sometimes the women do react that way? Oh yes. There are some feasts where the women are allowed to get back at the men. The men are now allowed to fight back. The women take their daggers and stab them and do all kinds of things. Really, to death? No, no. That’s a kind of game. The deoth of ancestors must be avenged. Nobody dies except through either murder in warfare or through magic. So they have ritualized tension-release systems for the oppression that builds up in their society? Oh yes, the women adore it and the men love it too. And they do get wounded. Quite a lot, and they are very proud of the scars of their own wives beating them or doing whatever. I have been beaten enough times by the women. They come sometimes with the snout of the sawtooth fish and whack you on the back with it, that leaves a couple of scars. Now amongst the Asmat are there some pacifistical types who disdain headhunting? No, forget it. There is no such person to date. There may well come a time, very soon, when that may happen, but the way things are now they are very quick to become violent. It’s hard to say, I mean, do I know every person in Asmat? What about serious disputes? Do they have a certain sort of system for resolution? Murder. Basically that’s it? They don’t have any sort ofjudiciary system? No. Each man fights his own battles and his mbai must help him. So let’s say, if we were to, in our imagination, completely strip away the facade, the accoutrements of civilization, do you notice any real change in human character through the civilizing technique? Of course, I don’t believe we are civilized. It is a part of the culture to kill; there’s no getting away from that. We also have that. It’s part of our culture to have a Vietnam War or whatever. We are trying to get further ahead than that, but will we ever do it? Look what we are doing in El Salvador right now; I don’t see that we are advancing. I would be terrified to walk across Central Park at two o’clock in the morning, whereas I’m pot afraid to walk across the jungle at night. The spirits might get me but I am not afraid of the people. 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