ness, since her somewhat truncated arrangements didn’t develop any tension or background flourish. But the quick endings, especially on the uptempo numbers, did provide some pleasant surprises, although many listeners would have preferred her to stretch out more than she did. It was these fast numbers, however, with notes tongued so quickly you could hardly separate them, which gave her slow tunes the authority of speed in reserve. So it was on the slow ballads where she really let the audience savor her unique phrasing and vocal prowess, drawing levels of meaning from the lyrics by means of facial expression and body motion as well as inflection. At times she slowed the tunes until they became almost a recitation, a bold, poetic touch; while on other songs, like Cole Porter’s “Most Gentlemen,” she used irony and mock-coyness while hamming it up for the enthusiastic crowd. There is a woman’s point of view implicit in her material and delivery, not as a message but there simply because it is her point of view. And although she is indeed womanly, it isn’t sexuality she projects on stage, but a more encompassing charm and joyfulness that seem to spring from a genuine delight in performing.... She finished her show with a long, scatting version of “Surrey With The Fringe On Top,” bending notes and time at will, prancing along on top of the changes. This one song was enough to make a believer of anyone .... She drew a standing ovation but decided it was best to leave us hungry for more. As much as Dexter Gordon’s prodigious achievement may inspire us, it may well be that the competent, independent example of Betty Carter can teach us the most. My questions were a mere formality as I sat pinned to a chair for two hours, muttering yes yes as Betty Carter laid down the truth in a long, engaging rap, and it’s a shame we couldn’t include every word.... With most respectful admiration, then, let me present Betty Carter, jazz singer. Talking With Betty Carter CSQ: You have said: “I’m probably one of the most fortunate people in the business. I started out doing what I’m doing now. Other people may have more money, but they don’t feel any better than I do.” Today I’d like you to discuss some of the factors that have shaped the career of “one of the most fortunate people in the business.” BC: I came to New York in 1951, after 1 left Lionel Hampton’s band. 1 got the experience and fought with Hamp for two and one-half years, doing my little be-bop... .Because he wouldn’t allow me to sing songs, you know; he had other singers to do ballads. I was taking care of the be-bop department.. .we had a personality conflict, I think....! was the young singer coming onto the band, I was probably very cocky, and Hamp probably got annoyed. If it hadn’t been for Gladys Hampton, his wife, I would have left the band, because Hamp fired me a couple of times. Gladys Hampton saw something in me that maybe Hamp didn’t, and maybe the fact that I was cocky was OK with her, because she could understand the aggressiveness 1 had going for me at that young age. Hamp didn't understand it, because after all, most men do not understand aggressive women. CSQ:l’ve heard it said that women in general have received an unfair deal in the jazz world. BC: Well don’t forget, I’m a singer, not a horn player. I wouldn’t lump myself with the women musicians who play horns. They’re the ones who would be able to tell you what kind of problems they had dealing with other musicians who play the same instruments. Most singers have no problems if they have any talent at all. But a horn player might have had a more difficult time dealing with her peers because men don’t think—or maybe they didn’t think—that women could play as well as they could. CSQ: In a book called Black Music, Leroi Jones mentions a record released in 1966 called The New Wave In Jazz, which included John Coltrane, Archie Shepp and Albert Ay- ler. He writes: Two other groups were supposed to be included, Betty Carter, who really turned the place out, and Sun Ra’s huge band. But due to some weird twisting by the A&R man, two highlights of this really live concert were blanked out. Was that incident part of a pattern which prevented you from getting recording contracts during those years? BC: No, I didn’t know anything about that ’66 thing they did... .You see, the sixties were the confusion time for the music because everybody thought he had something new, everybody was the the beginning of something. It wasn’t like that earlier. The newness just happened, we didn’t announce that we had it. Charlie Parker never announced that he had something new. Nobody got on a soapbox and said, “I’ve got something new and down with the old....” But when the new “free” music came in they said, “Down with be-bop.” How you going to “down” Charlie Parker? Even John Coltrane never said he had something new. A lot of musicians used his name for their own benefit. In the sixties, that’s when it became the thing to do: sound like somebody else and then go out and make your money off of them. Because don’t forget, commercial music was a I . of that. And then here comes this other guy, “frusion” or whatever, and everybody’s sounding like everybody else. With the electric instruments, you have no choice: you don’t have the difference in your touch on the piano, which comes with time and development. There’s no two Errol Garners. You mentioned some musicians who didn’t want to deal with conventional changes, who wanted to be free. Actually a lot of them didn’t know how to play the conventional changes. Except Coltrane, you see. Everybody was stressing the word “new” because they had no other word to call it. I don’t think it was new, it was just some styles some guys wanted to play, since Coltrane had started his atonal thing. But it’s not black. There was no black audience for that kind of music, and there still isn’t. You had black players who said they were playing black music, but there never was a black audience. And that’s the reason the music turned around and we all discovered we had a white audience. Black audiences just could not handle the music with no pulse. That’s our culture, our culture’s based on pulse. With be-bop or anything else we had no problem: we had nothing but black people in the audience. Because the pulse was there. The moment the pulse left the music, you lost black people. CSQ: In answer to a question you once replied: “Why haven’t I made it? The record business is the reason. ...” BC: No, I never said the record business is the reason. The reason I haven’t “made it” is because I'm not commercial. But I have made it. I’ve survived all these years in the business doing nothing but what I want to. I haven’t made a lot of money.. . .People equate making it with being rich and living on a hill. But that’s not the point. I’ve raised two kids and bought property, singing jazz. I travelled with Ray Charles, did a tour with him in 1961; that wasn’t bad company to be in when he was big big big, you know. I never stopped working the Apollo Theatre, and I’ve always worked clubs. So I managed to do it. In the process, I developed my style. CSQ: You must have been fairly content with what you were doing in the fifties and sixties, then, because you never went to Europe for an extended time like other jazz performers. BC: My audiences were content, so that made me content... .If I had gone to Europe I really would have been lost. Because the one thing about this country is that it makes you fight for what you really want; it’s not going to come easy. Once you go to Europe it becomes easier because you’re a novelty over there, you’re the only black one that can do it, right? If I had gone, I wouldn’t be singing like I am now. I think the reason Dexter’s doing what he is now is because he’s back here. And everyone who comes back here and deals with this pushing atmosphere will come out with something else. Once you stay there, you’re going to get caught up in what that is over there. You’re not really going to grow. "They give you one shot, and if you don't make it, forget it, they’re finished with you. This is cruel, and I think the record companies are now paying for it" CSQ: Do you think that the increased recoginition you’ve been getting these past six years is due to having your own record label? BC: Well, that helped... .There’s a difference between performing and recording, especially with jazz being as spontaneous as it is....My performances were always good. Even when I first started I had a personality that was winning. Even with Hamp, there was nothing he could do to stop me, it was the audience who always demanded my appearances. That’s one reason why I call this last album The Audience With Betty Carter. it has been my audiences that have kept me going all these years, that have kept me alive. CSQ: With regard to your audience, in a Village Voice article Gary Giddins claims that your recent popularity is due to a new attitude toward performing. He says: The total musicality with which she organizes a set, the lucid pacing and dynamics, has long been in evidence, but it has often been counterbalanced by a reticence in her performing style. The energy was there, but its vibrations were sometimes swamped by herfascination with texture, forcing a leap of faith from the audience—perhaps a definition of a cult following. ... I wonder if you have changed in the way. . . . BC: No, I’ve just grown. I’ve matured. My voice has gotten better, I’m learning how to sing better, because I’m finding out more about my abilities. I know more about me in the last five years than I’ve known all the other time, because I’m a little freer than I was. Earlier I was trying so hard to stay afloat that maybe I was tense. Even the people who watched me have grown too, you know. But now that I have confidence, it comes off more secure. 1 don’t know when Gary Giddins first saw me. Fifteen years ago the whole music scene was going through a number of changes. You had musicians who wanted to play changes, you had a bunch of “free” musicians who were saying they had the new thing, and you had the impact of the commercial world, beginning in 1964, when the record companies realized they could make much more money playing that other stuff than dealing with any kind of jazz. Don’t forget, when I started my record label [1971], big record companies were not about to record anybody; I’m not the only jazz singer who didn’t have a record label. Sarah Vaughn didn’t have a record label, Ella Fitzgerald didn’t have a record label... .Pablo'. That’s the only reason Sarah’s recording today. Columbia’s not reaching out for Sarah Vaughn, Columbia’s not reaching out for Carmen... .They’re in the same boat I’m in. Art Blakey had no label. Dizzy has no label. Jazz people don’t have major labels. So my independent company was just doing me a service. I decided to do it myself. To tell you the truth, it was a lady who said to me ten years ago, “Yeah, do it yourself; and I’ll help you.” That’s how it started. Anybody who believes in him- or herself, who believes they really have something going for them, shouldn’t sit around and wait for someone else to do it for them. If you’ve got some talent, somebody’s going to pick up on it. Somebody is going to help you do this, somebody is going to help you do that: I had nothing but help, believe me. CSQ: I think a lot of people in the arts could learn from the specifics of your experience. Just how do you go about promoting yourself? BC: I never turn down jobs that are a challenge. For instance, when Public Theater in New York presented a lot of avant-garde or “free” music, I was also asked to appear. So I went in and did well for the man running it...I sang be-bop at the Shubert Theatre, which nobody's ever done.... Just recently I did a TV show for Black History Month on PBS that was aired all across the country, a whole hour of me....There wasn’t much money in it; it was part of my quest to get more black people interested in jazz. I was trying to stimulate the black colleges to let kids know that there is other music for them to listen to, that they don’t have to do the same thing everybody else is doing to be successful. The thing about jazz is, it takes a little longer. You’ve got to be patient. And people don’t want to know from patience. They want to know about money right away; give me a bunch of money quick! They don’t want to know that it takes a few Clinton St. Quarterly 29
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