the world there should be both CSQ: You’re attracted new backgrounds ... certain kinds of there. A Pander don’t know what ... and now I feel less that way. I feel less hopeful. In fact, I think we may very well see the end of things. There are such enormous forces outside of our control, so life has become extremely suspenseful. maybe I’ll sneak in creatures here and production. I really Jacob has in mind. manipulate space. It gives me more confidence so that I can stand on the stage at Civic Auditorium and understand the space, or not be afraid of it, or know how I can do something with it. That becomes part of what I have gotten out of learning how to do anamorphic drawings. But when they’re made, they become entities unto themselves, and people draw their own conclusions as to meaning. Jacob has built an animation stand, and I look forward to doing a movie with my kids. They really want me to do it. Jacob will do the movie, and Arnold will draw the figures, and I’ll draw the backgrounds, since Arnold is much better at figures than I am. CSQ: He is? Pander: He is. He’s very good, very good at dynamic figures. I’ll do the pressed and hung over, and I took their picture. I made the drawing in Portland. Once I began working with the image, I realized that it expressed a great deal about what I was feeling in general about Europe ... the melancholy, the loneliness. CSQ: One of the changes I’ve noticed in your work is that you’re drawing more people now. Pander: Yes, well, the landscapes, the cityscapes I’ve been doing, I always felt they were like settings in which something might happen. Now I’m more interested in putting people in the settings. I think it’s also what I’m best at. I think the people can take on a real emotional power. I think I have the craft now. But I won’t necessarily follow a realistic approach. I’ll take any kind of liberty ... one of the great fun things about drawing and painting is that there’s no reason the things you draw have to look the way the world appears. CSQ: Isn’t that true of all kinds of art? Pander: Yeah. There’s no reason in gone, so you become freer, perhaps more direct.” things because of curiosity? Pander: Yes, and then others assign meaning to it, like “Henk Pander likes distortions.” CSQ: Are Hilde and Andries your relatives? /Portrait of Hilde and Andries on Train, 1979] Pander: It's my sister and her boyfriend the night they split up. I was in Holland, and my sister was leaving for Nice to guard someone’s boat, and the man was probably going to drink himself to oblivion, and there was a great deal of tension between them. So we were sitting in the train, waiting for it to leave the station, deHe has grandiose ideas about film. We’ll work within Jacob’s framework. I’ll have very little to say about what I draw. I think it is going to be very amusing. CSQ: New collaborators. Pander: Yeah, my kids are really amazing. They are two years apart and they’re extremely close ... they really like each other. They work together all the time. They make drawings where one draws in pencil, the other in ink, or one draws one half, the other draws the other half. They sit together for hours, two chairs at the work table, and they quietly work together all night, a well-oiled machine. Their gestures, the way they handle a piece of paper ... total harmony. It will be very satisfying to work with them. CSQ: When I went to see your show at the Museum, it was crowded. You are a popular artist. That’s very ex- . citing! PORTRAIT OF HILDE AND ANDRIES ON TRAIN, 1979. “It s my sister and nsr boytriend the mght they split tip. I wasin Holland we were sitting In the train, depressed and hung over, and I took their picture. Once I began working with the image, I realized that it expressed a great deal about what I was feeling in general about Europe, .the melancholy, the loneliness.” a bottom and a top to things Or that tables should have legs. CSQ: I’m glad you picked Four Figures in Landscape with Ruin as the poster for the Art Museum show /Four Figures, 1982, shows four people between railroad tracks which recede in the distance. On the left is a destroyed modern building.] It’s incredibly enigmatic. ' Pander: It has 3 suspense to it. I think I used to fe||||fc^ more engaged with alt the tui going on in the world ,,. t space? Pander: [chuckles] Probably. Unfortunately, the possibility of doing so seems remote again; they’re still looking at spqpe, but now it’s as a place to build a goddamn battle station. But as for my work, the extraterrestrial thing ... somehow I have gone beyond that now. CSQ: Where are you now? Pander: I’ve gotten to a place where I feel freer. The reason I draw something is that I wonder if I can. What will it look like? I wonder. So I draw it. Like the anamorphic drawings [drawn using a technique whereby the viewer must stand at a certain angle to the side of the piece in order to see the image]. The ones I’ve done aren’t even really that good, because with a really good one, the image is unrecognizable from the front — a blur; you can get it only from the side. My anamor- phics you can recognize from the front. But in making them I came to understand the principle behind it. So I acquire a new knowledge or skill in terms of how you can treat space, “I became more honest and less fearful, simply through the sensation of living in a foreign country. The social controls of your own country are CSQ: I like very much the railroad tracks forming a V with the disappearing point behind the group of people. Pander: Yeah, the people are thrust forward at you. And the ruin is sort of a Beirut building, destroyed by a rocket. It’s not an old ruin, it’s the ruin of a modern building. Pre-cast concrete collapses interestingly. Pieces hang on each other. Modern ruins. Also, the people have a kind of theatrical quality, directed outward at you, so the audience or whoever’s looking at the drawing is drawn into its space. I think my interest in having people participate in a piece came from my involvement with theater. I think about making a drawing engaging, so that it holds you there. I like the idea of an emotional interchange with what is essentially just ink or paint, so you find yourself engaged with something that’s not really there at all, something made up. CSQ: It’s very active ... not passive at all. Pander: Right, I hate boring stuff. I think there should be a great deal of excitement in the pieces. CSQ: What are you and your sons planning? Pander: Well, my son
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